Angelfire
We were discussing the electric car vs. gas car. Everyone was so excited (ok, maybe not the correct word) about the electric car. When asked if they might use electricity car, a lot of people shot up their hands and I was like, hmm! I didn't speak out because I wanted to do more research about it.
I was surprised when nobody brought up where electricity comes from. Coal. Zero emissions? Are you kidding me? The electric car is just another way of masking the problem. The people don't see it and they forget about where we get the energy from.
I was studying the efficiency of coal. It was definitely less than 20%. I don't have any notes on it anymore but I think it's less than 10 or 5 percent efficient after all the refining (and the energy they use to produce it and make it usable) they have to do. What I do remember is that I was ASTOUNDED at how low coal's efficiency was. We went through all the processes it went through and how much energy it lost in each process (in heat, light, sound, etc.) up til the end when it became electricity.
So I guess my two main questions are:
How efficient is coal - after all the processing they do in order to make it usable? (and how much would it take to run a car for 100km perhaps)
How efficient is gas - after all the processing they do in order to make it usable? (and how much would it take to run a car for 100km perhaps)
And compare them by their greenhouse gas emissions? With the amount of coal needed to run an electric car for 100km, and the amount of gas needed to run a regular gasoline car, which would produce more greenhouse gas emissions?
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Of course, if there were more of the other alternative energy such as nuclear, hydro, solar and wind, electric cars would be a better choice BUT for now, coal produces the majority of our electricity.
Answer
The efficiency of coal fired power plants is about 30%, 2.1 lbs of CO2 is generated from every kwh being produced. In charging a battery and energy transfer, the loss is 90%, when the power from the battery is being used, there is only 72% efficiency. So for that single kwh produced, we also produce 2.1 lbs of CO2. But that 1kwh only reaches the battery at .9kwh, then when it is converted into motion we have .65kwh remaining.
Assuming that a gasoline car is able to get 25 miles per gallon.
One gallon of gasoline is able to produce 36.6 kWh/US gallon.
That when converted into motion in cars, there is only 20% efficency. So that results in a transfer of only 7.32kwh for one gallon. The carbon dioxide output for the combustion of one gallon of gasoline is 2421grams (2.421 kg -> 5.34 lbs carbon per gallon) 5.34 lbs of carbon has not been converted into CO2 yet, so the conversion results in 19.5lbs of CO2 per gallon of gasoline.
19.3lbs*.65kwh/2.1lbs = 6.03kwh electricity
6.03kwh of electricity will produce the same amount of carbon dioxide emissions as does gasoline.
6.03kwh/7.32kwh*100 = 82.4% as carbon efficient as gasoline. assuming that all of the energy used to power the electric car comes from coal.
That calculation shows that electric generation by coal is not as efficient as using gasoline, but we need to take into account one more factor.
The United States uses 21.2% of the world's oil, in order to get this oil, we ship it all across the world. We produce about 5% of the world's supply, so in order to get 75% of the oil that we do use, we import it. In order to import it, ships travel across the oceans to deliver our oil. After it arrives, large portions are considered waste when it comes to gasoline refining. During the process, electricity, and fuel are consumed, putting even more carbon emissions into the sky. So at the end of the day, burning that coal is actually more carbon efficient than that gasoline that we are putting into our tanks. Further compounding this is the fact that not all of our electricity is being produced by coal. Some is being produced by oil, some is produced by nuclear. 30.8% of our electricity is being produced by coal, 6% by petroleum, 40.8% by natural gas, 10% nuclear, 7.5% hydro electric, the remaining is other renewables/gasses. If you take into account all combusting methods of electricity generation, the efficiency rating rises from 30% for coal to an over all efficiency rating of 40%. With this kind of efficiency rise, and after adding nuclear power, hydroelectric, and other renewables, it becomes clear that electricity will beat out gasoline in carbon efficiency.
The average price of electricity in the United States is $0.09 per kwh. if you make the calculation, thats about $1.01 to travel the 25 miles that one gallon of gasoline can travel. With gasoline prices at $3.50 a gallon, electricity begins to make allot more sense.
The efficiency of coal fired power plants is about 30%, 2.1 lbs of CO2 is generated from every kwh being produced. In charging a battery and energy transfer, the loss is 90%, when the power from the battery is being used, there is only 72% efficiency. So for that single kwh produced, we also produce 2.1 lbs of CO2. But that 1kwh only reaches the battery at .9kwh, then when it is converted into motion we have .65kwh remaining.
Assuming that a gasoline car is able to get 25 miles per gallon.
One gallon of gasoline is able to produce 36.6 kWh/US gallon.
That when converted into motion in cars, there is only 20% efficency. So that results in a transfer of only 7.32kwh for one gallon. The carbon dioxide output for the combustion of one gallon of gasoline is 2421grams (2.421 kg -> 5.34 lbs carbon per gallon) 5.34 lbs of carbon has not been converted into CO2 yet, so the conversion results in 19.5lbs of CO2 per gallon of gasoline.
19.3lbs*.65kwh/2.1lbs = 6.03kwh electricity
6.03kwh of electricity will produce the same amount of carbon dioxide emissions as does gasoline.
6.03kwh/7.32kwh*100 = 82.4% as carbon efficient as gasoline. assuming that all of the energy used to power the electric car comes from coal.
That calculation shows that electric generation by coal is not as efficient as using gasoline, but we need to take into account one more factor.
The United States uses 21.2% of the world's oil, in order to get this oil, we ship it all across the world. We produce about 5% of the world's supply, so in order to get 75% of the oil that we do use, we import it. In order to import it, ships travel across the oceans to deliver our oil. After it arrives, large portions are considered waste when it comes to gasoline refining. During the process, electricity, and fuel are consumed, putting even more carbon emissions into the sky. So at the end of the day, burning that coal is actually more carbon efficient than that gasoline that we are putting into our tanks. Further compounding this is the fact that not all of our electricity is being produced by coal. Some is being produced by oil, some is produced by nuclear. 30.8% of our electricity is being produced by coal, 6% by petroleum, 40.8% by natural gas, 10% nuclear, 7.5% hydro electric, the remaining is other renewables/gasses. If you take into account all combusting methods of electricity generation, the efficiency rating rises from 30% for coal to an over all efficiency rating of 40%. With this kind of efficiency rise, and after adding nuclear power, hydroelectric, and other renewables, it becomes clear that electricity will beat out gasoline in carbon efficiency.
The average price of electricity in the United States is $0.09 per kwh. if you make the calculation, thats about $1.01 to travel the 25 miles that one gallon of gasoline can travel. With gasoline prices at $3.50 a gallon, electricity begins to make allot more sense.
I want a safe car for the winter time, what would you prefer?
Thistimear
Including 4 wheel drive and not being a truck or anything huge that wastes a ton of gas, or something super expensive- 18k price range.
Answer
There are no "safe cars" for any season of the year around the planet. Cars are not safe. They are motion, self propelled devices powered by internal, some say "infernal" combustion engines, albeit many new ones have electric motors, Yeah! Four wheel drive vehicles do not work if there is no friction. In fact, 98% of cars on the road ARE NOT four wheel drive and are driven year round rather successfully. The DRIVER , the knowledge, the training, the ability to think and judge the conditions is what is important and evolves to a safe driver. Plenty of 4X4 crash in winter as this has NOTHING to do with handling, braking or ability of the driver to use good judgment. Years ago when ABS came out insurance companies gave a discount as they though cars with ABS would crash less often. THEY WERE WRONG. When cars came out with Stability Control Programming, no discounts. Do these cars crash less? No they do not. As it happens, most people DO NOT EVEN KNOW HOW THESE WORK and crash anyway. Why? Because people take RISKS. In Kentucky alone in 2012 over 53,000 crashes were attributed to distracted driving which means texting/cell phone. Three days ago in my area an 18 year old female died when while texting lost control of her car and crashed. About the same time a mother of four kids, barely 26 years old, drove in front of a large, YELLOW, school bus as if this BUS did not exit. She dies. Cause? Texting. If you wish to buy a car, buy a car you want. However, get driving lessons. Most people DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH as to cars. Going to a driving school should be MANDATORY. If you wish to see what I mean go to "wreckedexotics.com" to see people with money to buy expensive cars but with no brains to buy driving lessons that have crashed their cars. Some die. The subject of tires, energy, handling, kinetic energy, stopping distances, etc. IS NEVER DISCUSSED. And so, you, in your state of being an average uneducated and untrained driver, have the opinion that there are safe winter cars? And you shall buy one but you shall crash THINKING that you can speed and mishandle the car because you have four wheel drive. Last year or two an author rode a model T Ford for one year. In that year there were over 8 million crashes, 40,000 people died 5,000 of them teens. With millions of injuries over 250,000 ended up with handicap level injuries. This guy? Not even a parking ticket. No heat, no radio, very small almost bicycle size tires. And yet, not a scratch on the car. Why? He knew how to drive and when to drive and where to drive. No chances. My 2001 Audi is front wheel drive. Five speed manual. I drive year round. If there is snow, seldom in my area, over two inches, I wait for the roads to be cleared. The car does not have a scratch on it. Why? I have taken driving lessons, I never speed and I seldom take chances on the road. People have tried to crash into me. They speed, do not stop at stop signs, tailgate, etc. But I know what do to. How about you? Care to evolve into a safe driver? Get lessons. The car is not that important. YOU ARE.
There are no "safe cars" for any season of the year around the planet. Cars are not safe. They are motion, self propelled devices powered by internal, some say "infernal" combustion engines, albeit many new ones have electric motors, Yeah! Four wheel drive vehicles do not work if there is no friction. In fact, 98% of cars on the road ARE NOT four wheel drive and are driven year round rather successfully. The DRIVER , the knowledge, the training, the ability to think and judge the conditions is what is important and evolves to a safe driver. Plenty of 4X4 crash in winter as this has NOTHING to do with handling, braking or ability of the driver to use good judgment. Years ago when ABS came out insurance companies gave a discount as they though cars with ABS would crash less often. THEY WERE WRONG. When cars came out with Stability Control Programming, no discounts. Do these cars crash less? No they do not. As it happens, most people DO NOT EVEN KNOW HOW THESE WORK and crash anyway. Why? Because people take RISKS. In Kentucky alone in 2012 over 53,000 crashes were attributed to distracted driving which means texting/cell phone. Three days ago in my area an 18 year old female died when while texting lost control of her car and crashed. About the same time a mother of four kids, barely 26 years old, drove in front of a large, YELLOW, school bus as if this BUS did not exit. She dies. Cause? Texting. If you wish to buy a car, buy a car you want. However, get driving lessons. Most people DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH as to cars. Going to a driving school should be MANDATORY. If you wish to see what I mean go to "wreckedexotics.com" to see people with money to buy expensive cars but with no brains to buy driving lessons that have crashed their cars. Some die. The subject of tires, energy, handling, kinetic energy, stopping distances, etc. IS NEVER DISCUSSED. And so, you, in your state of being an average uneducated and untrained driver, have the opinion that there are safe winter cars? And you shall buy one but you shall crash THINKING that you can speed and mishandle the car because you have four wheel drive. Last year or two an author rode a model T Ford for one year. In that year there were over 8 million crashes, 40,000 people died 5,000 of them teens. With millions of injuries over 250,000 ended up with handicap level injuries. This guy? Not even a parking ticket. No heat, no radio, very small almost bicycle size tires. And yet, not a scratch on the car. Why? He knew how to drive and when to drive and where to drive. No chances. My 2001 Audi is front wheel drive. Five speed manual. I drive year round. If there is snow, seldom in my area, over two inches, I wait for the roads to be cleared. The car does not have a scratch on it. Why? I have taken driving lessons, I never speed and I seldom take chances on the road. People have tried to crash into me. They speed, do not stop at stop signs, tailgate, etc. But I know what do to. How about you? Care to evolve into a safe driver? Get lessons. The car is not that important. YOU ARE.
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Title Post: Coal vs. Gas (Electric Cars vs. Internal Combustion Engine)?
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