tallkenshi
A plug-in car uses the electric grid which is already under-invested in the USA, given our current needs. More importantly, this grid is inefficient--I hear that the loss during transmission is fairly high. Furthermore, the power source to generate the electricity comes from a variety of sources, some of which are decidedly inefficient.
Is there any study to take these factors into account? Is an electric-plug in hybrid more green given the issues I have described VERSUS. just driving a gasoline car, or some other hybrid (gasoline-electric, methane-electric, highly efficient gasoline car)?
Answer
An electric car can be as "green" as you need it to be. That is a much harder or impossible trick with an petroleum powered vehicle. If you live on a farm you can try and make your own bio diesel or illegal ethanol. It is not all that easy and a vehicle running on these alternatives is not pollution free. It is possible to put solar panels on the roof of your home and drive an electric vehicle without an ounce of pollution compared to the pounds and tonnage from a gasoline car.
An electric vehicle can do this trick because it is a zero pollution vehicle. A power plant is not a vehicle, If you want to compare transportation systems it becomes even simpler as refineries use the same electricity that could power an electric vehicle.1 In fact an electric vehicle could travel further on the energy used to refine a gallon of gasoline than a petrol vehicle could go using the refined product. see "How Much Electricity is used to run gasoline cars?" at: http://www.evnut.com/gasoline_oil.htm 1 So you can do the math. With the same energy (and pollution cost) you can refine oil or run an electric car. Then you still have all the pollution produced by ICE vehicles is greater than what is needed for an electric car and any combination of ICE vehicle / hybrid efficiency is moot. There is really no contest. It is not even close. You don't need a study. You only need to examine the published numbers.2
Our electric grid can use work. At present it might only be able to handle only 70 to 86% of our current fleet of vehicles if they were electrified and charged at night.3 Vehicles charging at night would make existing base load power plants more efficient. Peak daytime loading is an issue that could be aided with a V2G (vehicle to grid) storage system.4 Most power plants are located near their usage and send high voltage power to minimize transmission losses. Transmission losses are generally calculated at less than 4 to 5%.5 Some new power projects anticipate sending power for more than 1000 miles. High voltage DC electric lines are being looked into as a way to further minimize costs: http://eeeic.eu/proc/papers/69.pdf
1 "Oil refineries are among the worldâs largest users of electricity:" http://www.cleanfleetreport.com/alt-fuels/big-utilities-vs-big-oil/
2 see "Sorry, Critics - Electric cars really are Greener:"
http://dvice.com/archives/2009/07/shift-sorry-cri.php
3 http://www.groovygreen.com/groove/?p=1782
4 http://www.udel.edu/V2G/
5 more than you ever wanted to know about transmission of power: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/271700.html
An electric car can be as "green" as you need it to be. That is a much harder or impossible trick with an petroleum powered vehicle. If you live on a farm you can try and make your own bio diesel or illegal ethanol. It is not all that easy and a vehicle running on these alternatives is not pollution free. It is possible to put solar panels on the roof of your home and drive an electric vehicle without an ounce of pollution compared to the pounds and tonnage from a gasoline car.
An electric vehicle can do this trick because it is a zero pollution vehicle. A power plant is not a vehicle, If you want to compare transportation systems it becomes even simpler as refineries use the same electricity that could power an electric vehicle.1 In fact an electric vehicle could travel further on the energy used to refine a gallon of gasoline than a petrol vehicle could go using the refined product. see "How Much Electricity is used to run gasoline cars?" at: http://www.evnut.com/gasoline_oil.htm 1 So you can do the math. With the same energy (and pollution cost) you can refine oil or run an electric car. Then you still have all the pollution produced by ICE vehicles is greater than what is needed for an electric car and any combination of ICE vehicle / hybrid efficiency is moot. There is really no contest. It is not even close. You don't need a study. You only need to examine the published numbers.2
Our electric grid can use work. At present it might only be able to handle only 70 to 86% of our current fleet of vehicles if they were electrified and charged at night.3 Vehicles charging at night would make existing base load power plants more efficient. Peak daytime loading is an issue that could be aided with a V2G (vehicle to grid) storage system.4 Most power plants are located near their usage and send high voltage power to minimize transmission losses. Transmission losses are generally calculated at less than 4 to 5%.5 Some new power projects anticipate sending power for more than 1000 miles. High voltage DC electric lines are being looked into as a way to further minimize costs: http://eeeic.eu/proc/papers/69.pdf
1 "Oil refineries are among the worldâs largest users of electricity:" http://www.cleanfleetreport.com/alt-fuels/big-utilities-vs-big-oil/
2 see "Sorry, Critics - Electric cars really are Greener:"
http://dvice.com/archives/2009/07/shift-sorry-cri.php
3 http://www.groovygreen.com/groove/?p=1782
4 http://www.udel.edu/V2G/
5 more than you ever wanted to know about transmission of power: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/271700.html
What's the difference between an electric plug-in car, electric car, and hybrid car?
Rudolf
I find it all very confusing, I mean, an electric car obviously runs on batteries, but how do you charge it? So aren't there only two types? Hybrid (batteries and gas) and Electric plug-in (speaks for itself) because how else would you charge an electric only car? It must be either a hybrid or plug-in. So why still the term electric cars?
Thanks!
Answer
An "electric car" does not necessarily run on batteries and is not necessarily able to be "plugged- in." This is a common misconception based upon shorthands in speech and marketing. Electricity can be produced on the vehicle, transmitted to the vehicle or stored on the vehicle.
Electric Vehicles are defined by the electric (or other) motors that move them, but because these motors usually only are able to operate on one fuel we commonly refer to them by the fuel and not the motor. This is inaccurate and is the source of some confusion. There are two major types of electric motors. The first is the conventional type that produce a rotational movement that we can use to move tires and there is a type of linear electric motor that is used to suspend and move mag-lev trains.
The electricity for an electric motor can be:
1 produced on the vehicle using fuel cells, atomic batteries, internal combustion engines, external combustion engines or solar panels. When we are using fuel cells we might call the vehicle a fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV) or Fuel Cell Vehicle (FCV) for short. When we are using some other engine to produce electricity (through a generator) that then powers the electric motor we can call the vehicle a Series hybrid electric vehicle. Often we describe these vehicles by the fuel that is used even though it is the motors that also define the hybrid vehicles. For example we might speak about a Diesel / electric locomotive which is a type of series hybrid electric vehicle without batteries that is never plugged in. The earliest atomic submarines were series hybrid electric vehicles. When the electricity is produced by solar panels we can refer to the vehicle as a solar electric car or a solar car for short.
All these vehicles might have some batteries that might or might not be able to be plugged in. The important thing is not the plug but the type of motors and the primary source of energy. The range for these vehicles is limited by the energy provided to the primary electricity generator. A solar car is limited by the sunlight.
There is another catagory of hybrid car where the fueled engine powers the vehicle along with providing power for the electric motor. These vehicles may or might not be plugged in. These are parallel hybrids. The Prius is a parallel hybrid. Earlier ones could not be plugged in. Recent ones can be plugged in but all of them don't need the plug to operate. The Volt is a mostly series hybrid electric vehicle but at top speed will become a parallel hybrid. The manufacturer has decided to call it an "extended range electric vehicle" It will not charge the relatively small batteries in the vehicle. You plug the vehicle in to charge batteries and run the vehicle about 40 miles. From that point the gasoline engine provides the power to a generator that provides electricity for the traction motor. You don't need to plug in a Volt for it to run but after about 40 miles from a full charge it needs gasoline.
2. An electric vehicle can have electricity transmitted to the vehicle through wires like trolleys, subways or trams. There is experimentation with transmitting power to electric vehicles wirelessly using tuned capacitors. Essentially these vehicles are always "plugged in" and have unlimited range. The very largest Earth tunneling machines are "electric vehicles" that usually have the electricity transmitted to them.
3. An electric vehicle can store power on the vehilce using batteries, caqpacitors, or flywheels. I in this case the vehicle can be plugged in so that the energy "charge" can be built up in the vehicle. These vehicles are only plugged in when charging the batteries, but like any vehicle that stores energy on the vehicle (fuel or electricity) they will eventually run out. These vehicles might also have the charge built up without a plug. There are wireless electrical chargers and flywheels can be spun up magnetically without wires. The Nissan Leaf and the Mitsubishi I are Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV) which is often shortened to just "Electric Vehicle." This is probably misleading to some.
4. There is another catagory of "electric vehicles" that are indirectly run by electric motors. This would include cable cars, elevators, escallators and In this case electricity is transmitted to a stationary electric motor and then a cable from the electric motor moves the car.
An "electric car" does not necessarily run on batteries and is not necessarily able to be "plugged- in." This is a common misconception based upon shorthands in speech and marketing. Electricity can be produced on the vehicle, transmitted to the vehicle or stored on the vehicle.
Electric Vehicles are defined by the electric (or other) motors that move them, but because these motors usually only are able to operate on one fuel we commonly refer to them by the fuel and not the motor. This is inaccurate and is the source of some confusion. There are two major types of electric motors. The first is the conventional type that produce a rotational movement that we can use to move tires and there is a type of linear electric motor that is used to suspend and move mag-lev trains.
The electricity for an electric motor can be:
1 produced on the vehicle using fuel cells, atomic batteries, internal combustion engines, external combustion engines or solar panels. When we are using fuel cells we might call the vehicle a fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV) or Fuel Cell Vehicle (FCV) for short. When we are using some other engine to produce electricity (through a generator) that then powers the electric motor we can call the vehicle a Series hybrid electric vehicle. Often we describe these vehicles by the fuel that is used even though it is the motors that also define the hybrid vehicles. For example we might speak about a Diesel / electric locomotive which is a type of series hybrid electric vehicle without batteries that is never plugged in. The earliest atomic submarines were series hybrid electric vehicles. When the electricity is produced by solar panels we can refer to the vehicle as a solar electric car or a solar car for short.
All these vehicles might have some batteries that might or might not be able to be plugged in. The important thing is not the plug but the type of motors and the primary source of energy. The range for these vehicles is limited by the energy provided to the primary electricity generator. A solar car is limited by the sunlight.
There is another catagory of hybrid car where the fueled engine powers the vehicle along with providing power for the electric motor. These vehicles may or might not be plugged in. These are parallel hybrids. The Prius is a parallel hybrid. Earlier ones could not be plugged in. Recent ones can be plugged in but all of them don't need the plug to operate. The Volt is a mostly series hybrid electric vehicle but at top speed will become a parallel hybrid. The manufacturer has decided to call it an "extended range electric vehicle" It will not charge the relatively small batteries in the vehicle. You plug the vehicle in to charge batteries and run the vehicle about 40 miles. From that point the gasoline engine provides the power to a generator that provides electricity for the traction motor. You don't need to plug in a Volt for it to run but after about 40 miles from a full charge it needs gasoline.
2. An electric vehicle can have electricity transmitted to the vehicle through wires like trolleys, subways or trams. There is experimentation with transmitting power to electric vehicles wirelessly using tuned capacitors. Essentially these vehicles are always "plugged in" and have unlimited range. The very largest Earth tunneling machines are "electric vehicles" that usually have the electricity transmitted to them.
3. An electric vehicle can store power on the vehilce using batteries, caqpacitors, or flywheels. I in this case the vehicle can be plugged in so that the energy "charge" can be built up in the vehicle. These vehicles are only plugged in when charging the batteries, but like any vehicle that stores energy on the vehicle (fuel or electricity) they will eventually run out. These vehicles might also have the charge built up without a plug. There are wireless electrical chargers and flywheels can be spun up magnetically without wires. The Nissan Leaf and the Mitsubishi I are Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV) which is often shortened to just "Electric Vehicle." This is probably misleading to some.
4. There is another catagory of "electric vehicles" that are indirectly run by electric motors. This would include cable cars, elevators, escallators and In this case electricity is transmitted to a stationary electric motor and then a cable from the electric motor moves the car.
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Title Post: how green is driving an electric plug-in car?
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