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Bill23
Anyone know what the advantages/disadvantages are for lithium-ion batteries other than their costs? I heard they are probably the best option for electric cars, why is that? Why aren't they viable for off-grid storage? Just the costs?
Thanks!!
Also need information on flow batteries. Other than low-energy density and the inability to scale-up what are the disadvantages of flow batteries? Advantages?
Answer
"Just the costs" ???? Obviously, you have never learned about the time value of money. Try researching Internal Rate of Return and Net Present Value. The costs are a big deal. Lithium Ion may be the best battery technology that we have but there are many problems. They are tricky and dangerous to charge and discharge. Their capacity degrades almost immediately, they degrade the fastest when completely charged or completely discharged hence they are stored at 50% for shipping. Their volumetric energy may be the best for batteries but is still very low. They can only discharge at certain rates. Charging batteries is a little like warming up a frozen steak to room temperature, at first the changes occur quickly but as you approach your target, the rate slows down even though you may be putting the same amount of energy into it.
Ultimately, a battery is just a way of chemically storing energy. Well, so are gasoline and diesel, indeed these are stored solar energy. Unlike batteries, gasoline and diesel are energy dense, and do not self drain over time ( though gasoline will separate into varnishes ). We also know how to efficiently synthesize hydrocarbons from a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen gases in exothermic Fischer Tropsch reactions and have done so on national scales. WWII Germany fueled their planes and Embargoed South Africa fueled their trucks this way. The US currently dilutes it's high sulfur diesel with synthetic diesel to meet federal ultra low sulfur diesel requirements, yes this doubled the price of diesel overnight when the legislation passed in the 90's. Canada's tarsands are gasified into syngas and the synthesized into a synthetic crude. We can get the syngas from gasification of coal, natural gas, tarsands, biomass such as trash and dried sewage or even directly from CO2 and H2O if we use an energy source. We basically know how to "charge" CO2 and H2O back into gasoline and diesel and we can and have done so efficiently. It's just that storing energy ourselves doesn't compete with the energy that nature has stored for us. However, it does mean we can do better than lithium-ion batteries just by synthesizing our fuel and using existing vehicles and fuel delivery infrastructure. EV's with lithium-ion batteries are just green washing to sell new cars.
Synthetic fuels from the gasification of biomass can also produce charcoal which when used as biochar sequesters carbon from the environment. Our existing gasoline vehicles can remove CO2 from the atmosphere with carbon negative synthetic fuels. An electric car can not do that.
"Just the costs" ???? Obviously, you have never learned about the time value of money. Try researching Internal Rate of Return and Net Present Value. The costs are a big deal. Lithium Ion may be the best battery technology that we have but there are many problems. They are tricky and dangerous to charge and discharge. Their capacity degrades almost immediately, they degrade the fastest when completely charged or completely discharged hence they are stored at 50% for shipping. Their volumetric energy may be the best for batteries but is still very low. They can only discharge at certain rates. Charging batteries is a little like warming up a frozen steak to room temperature, at first the changes occur quickly but as you approach your target, the rate slows down even though you may be putting the same amount of energy into it.
Ultimately, a battery is just a way of chemically storing energy. Well, so are gasoline and diesel, indeed these are stored solar energy. Unlike batteries, gasoline and diesel are energy dense, and do not self drain over time ( though gasoline will separate into varnishes ). We also know how to efficiently synthesize hydrocarbons from a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen gases in exothermic Fischer Tropsch reactions and have done so on national scales. WWII Germany fueled their planes and Embargoed South Africa fueled their trucks this way. The US currently dilutes it's high sulfur diesel with synthetic diesel to meet federal ultra low sulfur diesel requirements, yes this doubled the price of diesel overnight when the legislation passed in the 90's. Canada's tarsands are gasified into syngas and the synthesized into a synthetic crude. We can get the syngas from gasification of coal, natural gas, tarsands, biomass such as trash and dried sewage or even directly from CO2 and H2O if we use an energy source. We basically know how to "charge" CO2 and H2O back into gasoline and diesel and we can and have done so efficiently. It's just that storing energy ourselves doesn't compete with the energy that nature has stored for us. However, it does mean we can do better than lithium-ion batteries just by synthesizing our fuel and using existing vehicles and fuel delivery infrastructure. EV's with lithium-ion batteries are just green washing to sell new cars.
Synthetic fuels from the gasification of biomass can also produce charcoal which when used as biochar sequesters carbon from the environment. Our existing gasoline vehicles can remove CO2 from the atmosphere with carbon negative synthetic fuels. An electric car can not do that.
Would you spend more for an electric car, and how much more?
greg w
If there was a nearly perfect electric car, with all the comforts you're used to, unlimited range through fast charging (comparable to gas filling), acceleration as good or better as your current car, the whole works.
Would you pay 5% more for the car, or would you buy a car where the savings in fuel has a 5 year payoff?
What's your money stance on this issue, given perfectly equal performance.
Answer
To calculate what would be the % premium to pay for an electric car over a gas car, I'd take 1 - [PV([total cost of ownership of electric car over 5 years]-[est. residual value at the end of the 5 years])]/[PV([total cost of ownership of gas car over 5 years]-[est. residual value at the end of the 5 years])]. This would be assuming you pay for the car in cash up front.
A 5 year payoff is way too long since people don't keep cars for very long anymore. Also, it would be hard to convince a lot of people to opt for that considering the emotional reaction to the sticker price and factoring in opportunity cost and the time-value of money.
The problem right now is that there is such a wide gap in performance/convenience for an electric car vs. a gas car, and its hard to justify even paying the same price, much less a premium.
To calculate what would be the % premium to pay for an electric car over a gas car, I'd take 1 - [PV([total cost of ownership of electric car over 5 years]-[est. residual value at the end of the 5 years])]/[PV([total cost of ownership of gas car over 5 years]-[est. residual value at the end of the 5 years])]. This would be assuming you pay for the car in cash up front.
A 5 year payoff is way too long since people don't keep cars for very long anymore. Also, it would be hard to convince a lot of people to opt for that considering the emotional reaction to the sticker price and factoring in opportunity cost and the time-value of money.
The problem right now is that there is such a wide gap in performance/convenience for an electric car vs. a gas car, and its hard to justify even paying the same price, much less a premium.
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Title Post: Advantages and disadvantages of lithium-ion batteries for energy storage?
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